Author: Sandeep Agarwal

According to a CNBC report from US , sixty-five percent of the women said that they will not feel safe trying clothes in fitting room while 54% men and about 49% of millennials also felt the same due to the Covid-19 crisis through a poll conducted in End April. Similar numbers say that they will be very uncomfortable coming in contact with sales people.

So how can we arrive at a “low touch” solution for an industry accustomed to “high touch” .  However, not withstanding these problems, the stores are on their way to reopen. Kohl’s became the latest major retailer to reopen stores this week, with four stores opening on May 4 and 10 more opening on May 11, all with additional safety precautions but the fitting rooms will be closed. Luxury lifestyle retailer Tapestry has opened all stores in China and plan to open many in Europe  , Australia and Japan. More than 300 Coach, Kate Spade and Stuart Weitzman stores across North America may provide store pickup options

Many retailers are rushing to create their own solutions to this problem and to attract customers back into their stores .

• Macy’s plans to  only leave open a few fitting rooms and will hold all merchandise tried on or returned for 24 hours as they enter into their phased opening of stores.
• Kohl’s is holding all returned merchandise for 48 hours and has closed all fitting rooms .
• Gap is holding the merchandise for 24 hours and will not open fitting rooms.
• Saks will quarantine all clothing used in fitting rooms for 48 hours  They are also  offering appointments, curbside pickup, and virtual shopping appointments via FaceTime or Zoom.
• Kick Pleat has clear signs that all customers and employees must wear masks , all surface and handles are cleaned after every customer visit.
• ByGeorge has installed door bells on its stores so that they can control the traffic coming in .

However, these measures are not enough. There are much more detailed procedures which the retailers must adopt to ensure customer trust. There are , though, no uniform strategies being followed by the retailers or the governments. This is bit strange because there should have been SOPs in place by all major governments by now to ensure that the protocols are followed as business opens and pandemic does not spread.

More permanent options are being explored-

• To clean the garments using ozone-based technology within 1 hour which ensures 99.95% of all bacteria and viruses are killed.
• Killing Covid-19 with ultraviolet light is another option retailers are looking at.
• Number of major retailers deploying its products in stores or backrooms.
• Some stores like Men Suit Suppliers are even allowing customers to pre book the fitting rooms so that they can sterilized the fitting rooms before the customer’s arrival.
• Some employers from men’s apparel brand Bonobos are turning their social media accounts into virtual shops, showing off styles and various outfits online, then directing people to buy them on the web.
• Customers will be allowed in only after they undergo thermal screening and they sanitize their hands. Air conditioners will be switched off.
• Virtual meetings are being planned before the visit , so that the garments can be prepared for an individual customer before his visit .

Men’s suit maker Suit supply is installing standing partitions in its stores as they reopen, which it says allow for “safe up-close interaction” for people who want their jackets & pants to be fitted. The giant Mall of America is planning to open on June 1 but they have not clarified what health and safety methods they would be following for the opening.

Window shopping might also be making a comeback if consumers feel safer like this more. A boutique teen apparel clothing shop in New York has been shut in this pandemic situation. But the mannequins in the store stand fully clothed in the windows. And a sign over the door reads: “See something you like in the window? Feel free to text or call”

We need to see if these precautions work against the COVID19 and we really hope they do. Otherwise we face painful lockdowns and closures again.

James

Sandeep:
Hi James . How are you and how is everything in China ?

James:
Hi Sandeep. It is very good and we are much more relaxed now.

Sandeep:
Yeah of course because situation has been controlled to a lot  and things are coming back to normal I hear.

James:
Actually in China , most of the activities is turned back to normal. We were being locked down in February and March. At that moment people are tense and nervous but now all the restaurant restart and people start going out, start doing their shopping on the street is for people not like two months ago and the government also encouraging the small business like a small shop restaurant to start again.So basically we already tackled the situation except the cinema and stadium. Still we try to avoid too many people get into the same space. So how about your side?

Sandeep:
From our side, we’re in a lockdown for last one and one month in a month and I think for another three weeks probably will be the lockdown and this is a strict lockdown so nothing is open  shops , offices are closed. So we just can get some food items in the small shops nearby and that’s all I mean we are still hoping numbers of cases still going up and we really hope that it will start coming down and we might control the situation by the end of this month.

James:
We didn’t have the law but the thing is everybody put the mask on, it’s actually they are doing something to protect themselves.

Sandeep:
What about the retail shops like the apparel shops? What are they doing ?

James:
Comparatively not much people shopping especially I’m talking about the town much less people shopping in a shops but digital shop is growing. Business is growing which is the biggest electronic structure. The eShop is having enjoying a very good result.

Sandeep:
But is that for all the categories ? What about the apparel category ? How is it doing?

James:
Apparel category is actually growing even compared to last year !

Sandeep:
Actually so that’s a good thing at least that is something you probably will see in Europe and US also. Once things start opening so people will start buying from these online retailers and it is that will give some kind of respite to the industry.

James:
It will be a trend but I believe that one European American ever actually one day we started the business when people turn back to their normal life they are 200 they may go out to the shop to started shopping.

Sandeep:
So you know I’ve been talking to some technology providers and all they were talking about some providing trying to create some safety equipment for the shops so that the customers feel safe. Do you think something like this is happening China also or they are using these kind of measures?

James:
Already we are using this. Whenever we enter the stores , number one the temperature has been checked and then the travel record also been checked for eg, If I came from Hong Kong , when and where I came, which city I stayed in , and ensure that I am doing all the safe activities. Also, the shop is not always full of people, so you can feel safe inside.

Sandeep:
Regarding sanitization of garments as I was talking to you before also, still people are working on technologies to sanitize the garments in some way so that customers feel really safe when they come to the shop.

James:
Basically they only spray the sanitizer on top and on the above it may also affect the appearance of the color of the print. However, they are taking all precautions and trying to work out some repellent fabrics.

Sandeep
It will help in at least repelling some of these droplets and other things which will not stick to the garment if this finishing is done.

James:
Yes, it reduces the spread of the virus.

Sandeep:
Is it mainly for denim or for any other product?

James:
Yes, it is mainly for denim.

Sandeep:
What is Foizon doing to adjust to the current situation?

James:
The production is very slow. The very imposing thing is all the European and American market have been dramatically slowing down. We are lucky that we have still kept our production on.

Sandeep:
Because you have a big  local market also because that really helps.

James:
Local market, yes. But local market for us comparatively is less helping as we are only making maybe not more than 10 % of production for local market.

Sandeep:
So in terms of buyers your buyers and overseas buyers, still some buyers  are taking the products and everybody’s not canceling ?

James:
The thing we worry about is not canceled orders but hold on orders. How we don’t know when would they take the order. It’s also we are facing a lot of a stand payment even with the LC but what can we do we have to help.

Sandeep:
Actually both of the buyers and suppliers have to try to  to find the solution because otherwise it is very difficult.

James:
But in order to save the workers we don’t want to let the workers have in there no paid leave and we think about them. One thing is  we start making the masks and applying the N95 license in state. Now I see into this we can really put in the production .Maybe someone said  it’s too late for this and we are not reasonable to make some profit out of it but we try to help using the well equipped and qualified mask and deliver to all the medical people.  I think with  the reopen of the US and Europe in or even Africa or India wherever people will need masks in the family for sure.

Sandeep:
I think so because still is a huge shortage I can see but in coming future all the government will make it compulsory. It’s going to become a big need in the coming times.

James:
Yes , but the most important thing is that we need to make the more qualified ones.

Sandeep:
Of course that is very important and I have been seen masks made from denim made by different brands online  and that top very expensive.

James:
Personally , I think they are not very comfortable.

Sandeep:
It is something which is not certified and people are just making it for design purpose maybe.

James:
I took the insulation from the factory and put it in side the denim and trust me it is not at all comfortable.

Sandeep:
But maybe in the near future maybe if we are able to develop a  denim which can actually be used in face masks because if this mask is going to be there with us for at least one year one and half years when everybody’s wearing it so people would like to look different. Everybody’s not like to wear those white masks.

James:
Yes but it will be a fashion for winter , I don’t think it will be good for summer.

Sandeep:
So what are the major changes you’ve seen in terms of this crisis as you already in China in some ways are much ahead of us in this crisis . So you already see the consumers of course one thing is that they reduce the spending but so also have they changed the spending behavior? I mean looking for different kind of products even from what they are buying ? are they looking for different products for what they will look it before in China?

James:
Yes for the time being the people in China they are looking for more solutions and more basic things. I still come back it’s not that factually as before and turn the shop in might.

Sandeep:
Because people don’t want to look too fashionable now when there is so much of crisis going on they will it look simple.

James:
Yes, may be this is one of the reason.

Sandeep:
Probably will see that people we don’t like to look too flashy. In fact I was reading a report from 1918 Spanish flu and they seen thinking about their also that people after the crisis didn’t want to look too you know too fashionable because if looks odd in such times of crisis. If we take history , if you go back into history because these things have happened before and we should learn from them and  in terms of character of denim ? What do you think can be the changes in character of denim in next few months or next 1 year?

James:
First of all I see the antivirus is very popular.Not only Foizon but others are also making it. If we talking about the style you said a lot of thing will turn back to normal on textile then the fabric itself and before there’s a lot of spongy weave, heavy weight quality come back like that 80s. I think it will still keep going on and also this self army it’s very good for us clarify the antivirus finished on top so it may be the trend.

Also we need to get together and show that the customer again  in our business. I don’t think we can promote down farming by only through internet or any other channel. Touching the product itself is most important thing.

Sandeep:
Now ,people are ate home and they are looking for lounge wear , home wear and for softer fabric . So do you also feel that in denim also , we need to go for softer fabrics and the fabric which are more usable at home wear?

James:
This is a joke to me dear. Some of my friends in Europe called me and said Oh ! I never washed my jeans before and during this COVID , my mom took all my jeans for laundry and washed it up . So in future my jeans could become more softer and comfortable.So , it may be the direction. Better quality products going to the home wear.

Sandeep:
In terms of markets, I think probably for you also the major markets must be US, Europe and maybe Japan. So I mean these are the probably the biggest markets which are really buying the garments, so which of these you see you know restarting fastest ,restarting coming back earliest and you know getting on their feet ?

James:
According the situation now I think European market will turn out to be the first and also even the trend having once the designers we start working it will come first and then Japan.

Sandeep:
Okay and then may be US

James:
Yes, US might be less but it will be the slowest one to recover.

Sandeep:
Absolutely because it’s a much higher spread out there and generally speaking for the Chinese textile industry they have started coming back on its feet and they’re slowly starting, depending on the region where there are and they start actually to start the productions.

James:
Basically I think depends on the whole the situation for Chinese markets. The people are ready according to the figures. It is kept in various at best I think we can really come back to normal in full speed – all depends on the orders.

Sandeep:
One more important thing for the denim industry , sustainability , which is everybody have been still strongly promoting and everybody has been talking about. Do you think that will also undergo some kind of change ?

James:
Number one I say some of the news which is not strongly enough make disappear that is definitely happen and the second thing is for supply chain. I think there would be a dramatic change of the production location. Some of the country may lose their order during this crisis or maybe lost part of their there orders during the crisis and there  would be a lot of change.

Sandeep
But the retailers and brands still focus on sustainability, still they will focus on sustainability like days to do before or they will not ?

James:
No , I don’t think so.

Sandeep:
Why do you think so ?

James:
Number one a lot of countries they cannot recover as what we expected. They definitely will start moving around social all over wherever it is ready to come back to that area first that country first. So the cause of our training will be trade.

Sandeep:
First priority of retailers what we do you know is to  start the chain in any way they can and all this buzz words like sustainability  probably they might keep it on a back burner and not think about that so much till the time there are things to normal.

James
Of course.Once everything  would come back to normal but the coming 12 months I think that would be a lot change .

Sandeep
And of course because people have lost money, also the consumers they might shuttle in for some cheaper products some huge discounts coming up so that they can buy ?

James:
Yes or no, the thing is the cheapest one whoever cannot make use of it. Maybe they are going to be vanished during this COVID. It just so much anymore when we going to back to a better country or this better price or better quality maybe also in present then there is still need because of less options than before.

Sandeep
Any other positive things you think coming out of this situation?

James:
I don’t think you should ask this question to me because I am really a positive guy. I will only tell you yes I am very positive. We should be positive always. The COVID is going to change our life and habits but finally we can tackle it. Therefore , everybody should be positive.

Sandeep:
Do you want say anything to  our denim community and friend s here?

James:
Everybody , we need to work hard. Be positive as our business will come back and our health will come back.

Sandeep
That is great. Thank you James and it was wonderful speaking to you. Wish you all the best and I really hope we meet very soon.

James
Thank you Sandeep and see you soon.

Video link

Arvind ltd is one of the most well known global denim companies and its CEO Aamir Akhtar a reputed denim professional . Continuing the series of talks with such important people in the industry, Sandeep Agarwal takes his views and opinion on how our industry is going to react and come out of this crisis and what we should expect in near future.

Sandeep:
Hi Aamir, welcome to our Covidtimes talks. It’s a pleasure to have you with me. 

Aamir:
Hi Sandeep, Thank you Sandeep.

Sandeep:
So, how is the situation in Gujarat and Ahmedabad particularly?

Aamir:
The situation is a bit different here as compared to the rest of India. According to the statistics, the number of cases in Gujarat are higher. That is because the testing is higher in Gujarat. The good news is that the recovery is fast therefore people are recovering and going back home.

Sandeep:
People have been talking that by June we should , in some ways,come out of this situation and let’s hope and pray for that. So, are we seeing any kind of restarting of the textile industry in some small way – let’s say for Arvind or for others ?

Aamir:
Government had announced 21st April as a date when they would start allowing certain industries with certain do’s and don’ts. Certain industries which are in export processing zones; Export Oriented Units – those are the ones which have been given permission and especially industries that have people staying within the campus. Certain spinning units have started working and I’m told, there have been exports from some of them. Last week there has been exports of yarns, but the fact remains that unless the whole ecosystem starts it doesn’t become optimal. 

Sandeep:
I think basically the bigger units will have a better chance of fitting in as things open up because the smaller units will not be able to follow the SOPs and you know the procedures which the community is asking for. So maybe the government will get more comfortable adding the bigger unit first.

Aamir:
So let’s say each side has its own plus and minus.   bigger industries have   bigger challenges. There are certain minimum threshold levels that you need to operate with because your boilers are of a certain size, your compressors are of a certain size. So, unless you’re operating within a certain threshold level you will be extremely inefficient.

Sandeep:
This is a huge crisis which no one expected. What is your analysis of how it is going to hit the denim industry in particular and textile industry of course in general in India and around the world?

Aamir:
My analysis cannot be very different from the analysis that all the industry peers have given. All I can say is, of course it is  a big black swan event   nobody expected, or nobody could have ever imagined something like this to happen. Interestingly it is not  a structural macro or microeconomic issue. It is an accident. As we recover from the accident, things will start gradually moving back to normalcy. That’s what I feel.

Sandeep:
In terms of the retail sector in India; do you think that only e-commerce might be the first one to recover slowly and probably the big sectors will open?

Aamir:
Absolutely, that’s a fact. We’ve seen , even before this problem,  e-commerce growing because of all the options and convenience it brings to customer’s tables. Even, let’s say, the advantages in terms of pricing  it brings to the customers and so on. And as we’ve been seeing all across that it’s these delivery startups, it is these online organizations; that are on the hiring spree right now. 

Sandeep:
I mean, even the big stores might be looking at taking their sales to the online stores; though many have already done that. 

Aamir:
Both have their own strengths, both have their own spaces. The experience that we get out of brick and mortar stores is very difficult to duplicate in E-commerce. So, it’s more about convenience and it’s more about experiences. Let’s say if you want a cup of tea, you can order the finest tea bags & get tea at home, at a very affordable cost. You can get a cup of tea sitting at your home but then  you want to go to a five-star hotel because  it’s about the experience. The experience starts the moment you get into a five-star hotel – there is somebody who’s welcoming you and then you get the music, the ambience and then they serve in fine China. So, there is a space for that experience and people look for that experience. 

Sandeep:
I think the stores are already planning some kind of safety measures and health measures when they will start opening and they have to think about how the consumers would feel secure. Are they planning to give security to the customers in some way; in terms of sanitization?  How can they make customers feel safe? Do you think they are already planning and how they should be planning for this?

Aamir:
It will be a new normal and it will become like a second nature for all of us to accept these new norms of entering public spaces. It’s like if you go back in time you will remember that one could simply  walk into 5-star hotels.   Nowadays  when you want to go to one of those places, first you are asked to open the trunk of the car then they will ask you to walk thru security corner  and when you walk in, you have to put your bag and wallet for scanning and then you have walk through security and it has become second nature for us . Same is true for how we used to travel internationally or even domestically – there was never this kind of security checks but of course, due to all the global terror problems and security issues, Now, It’s a struggle when you go through security but then it’s normal now and people  build  it in their schedules. It has become second nature for you and you get used to it. So it’ll be a new normal . Human evolution is all about moving forward, accepting things and taking things into one’s stride and moving forward.

Humanity has faced such challenges very often in the past. It has been challenged with diseases which are very easily treatable now –malaria , cholera , pneumonia, tuberculosis etc. When these diseases came to light; that time, people didn’t know how to handle them till  vaccines were found. However  humanity finds solutions and moves forward.

Sandeep:
Now that we are all working digital – do you think our work processes would get affected in a large way. Do you think this will carry on and the digitalization will increase in terms of industry?

Aamir:
This has been a huge revelation for a lot of people. A lot of people because of their own sense of inertia, for their own reasons of not being able to look beyond what they’ve been doing on a daily basis; they could never understand the power and now that we have been challenged through work from home – that’s when we realize the power. People realize that it is possible to do a lot of things digitally and remain connected and still work, so this again will be a new normal. One will be able to learn how to communicate and to deliver on all your objectives through the digital route. We have also seen valuations of digital players like Zoom go up dramatically; that’s because the whole world is realizing the importance of digital communication. Lot of work will move to digital platforms.

Sandeep:
What changes do you see specifically in different regions – let’s say in India or in this part of the world or the Asian countries?  Do you see different consumer preferences cropping up?

Aamir:
I think, one is the immediate situation, where people would like to be safe – they would like to be careful with whatever disposable incomes they have. So, what we see is that consumers would like to move towards the value segment. They’d like to get more value for their money; let’s say things which are less discretionary, so, say for denims – work wear, kids wear are non discretionary. You have to have these things on for your regular usage. I think  there’ll be a shift towards these segments but gradually as things sort of improve then people will start getting back to differentiation. Humans are about differentiation, you want to differentiate yourself, you want to look different, you want to look good, so that’s when you start moving towards fashion. There are 2 primal psyches of individuals or consumers –greed & fear . Right now it is about fear; so, you see that playing out at the stock exchange – everyone is investing in gold  and other safe havens,  However as things improve it will start consumers will start moving  from need to want.  That’s when  the whole fashion and design and differentiation start . Hopefully it is not so distant in future.

Sandeep:
Do you think this will be similar for all regions or different regions might have different perspectives? Consumers might behave differently & have different views?

Aamir:
Western economies, developed economies like the US,  like Japan are primarily driven by consumption – eighty percent of the GDP or more is driven by consumption whereas certain other economies and if you talk about our trade a certain geographies which primarily focus on manufacturing. So, there, the behavior is very different versus the economy which is very high on consumption where consumers have  been used to consuming a lot.

Sandeep:
So the differences will remain and you’ll see coming out of this crisis. We will see that these differences will come out in different ways. Some consumers might be hearing about revenge shopping if you come out and go at revenge shopping so some of the regions people will evaluate.

Aamir:
This revenge shopping has become a buzz word with Wuhan opening. But we need to see the extent of this, I mean how much of revenge shopping is going on. Let’s say the picture is not as rosy as it seems, when we hear about China, if we see today’s Bloomberg report on China, you still have issues with people not going back to life as we expect them to and the Malls still  being empty. 

Sandeep:
In terms of cancellations, global cancellations of orders – there have been huge cancellations everywhere. Every region has suffered, India also suffered to a great extent I think. So from what I’ve seen, probably, it is little different from region to region and in terms of fabric and garments there is a difference because fabric is still somehow manageable even and garment is much more difficult. So do you think in India, the extent of cancellations is huge and people are suffering especially the garment exporters?

Aamir:
Sure Sandeep, there has been a strong pushback across all the geographies. People have come back with cancellations with different garment vendors in different geographies, like Vietnam, Cambodia, Africa , that has seen a push back to the whole supply chain. We have seen that happen and it has been a great learning in seeing how people have reacted, how brands and retailers have really acted to the situation. A lot of very interesting experiences in terms of seeing as what really separates  men from boys. As there are some prime customers that have been very, let’s say, supportive. 

They are very practical about it but there are some really knee-jerk reactions, and which has really created a lot of aggravation across the supply chain and a lot of it was not really merited. If there had been conversations, if there were discussions, it would have been different.  I think what really happened was that simply pressing the panic button and simply cancelling – sending cancellation messages that was a major reaction to the situation and it was not really merited because what really happens and here is that these large organizations among the largest players in the ecosystem they have an endorsement value so if they act in a certain manner , people across the supply chain start believing that is the right behavior – it is the right thing to do if someone is doing that. Right or wrong but this is how it works. So you know I’ve seen that  for most people their first reaction was to cancel everything & hold back everything, and then when they took stock, lot of people came back and said that okay let’s have a conversation “ I need this and you do this” and some people who even asked ,’if we can you do things a little faster . ‘When do you think things will improve and what will be the lead times when things will improve and when can we ship’. 

Unfortunately  this was  in hindsight Sandeep . There was aggravation in the system because you see this whole industry is a very unique one; where the products that you make are perishable because it’s for a certain season, for a certain size, for a certain price point  and for a certain brand. So if you suddenly put everything on hold obviously the whole system comes under a lot of aggravation and gets affected. The whole supply chain starts taking such decisions. 

There are multiple solutions eg. There are governments in various geographies who are giving support. People giving support of bill discounting, they are getting support for bills to get postponed with  moratoriums on interest payment.  Even in the entire community, even the brands and retailers in the geographies in which they operate, you’ve seen that the government is giving support in terms of  compensations for  people who have lost their jobs , they technically are on roads and they are being supported by the government. So you should have conversations and find solutions. Lot of solutions have been found but they’ve been found in hindsight after they did some damage.

Sandeep:
I think still some retailers and brands, they came back and they have tried to rescue the situation.

Aamir:
For sure, a lot of them have been very sensible and mature about it. They have been very data driven and were able to quickly analyze and segregate the situation and come back to the vendors and try to solve this and move forward.

Sandeep:
In terms of denim, it has progressed from work wear to casual wear to fashion wear to office wear and so on. Do you think denim can also contribute to global industries as a health and wellness product?

Aamir:
My point of view on this is that every product category has its own strengths. Denim has been into work  wear – so rightly said. Even today work wear denim to some extent and Denims with certain FR treatments and things like that might work. I feel that as we came out of this there will be influences of the current situation on denim also. On a denim product, there will be influences where people will want the products which are anti-microbial or will deliver some performance. I believe there will be influences but they will remain temporary influences. A category shift where denim moving into use of personal protective equipment with time – I don’t really see that happening because the demands of that product category are very different. You need fabric which is very light weight, breathable, affordable and low cost because they are primarily use and throw. 

If you make an overall for the health industries, it has to be very light weight because they have to wear it for the whole day and they have to keep changing every few hours. So it has to be used and thrown. So that’s why the industries like non- woven where you can make something very light weight and non-woven fabrics, the polyesters with some laminations and treatments – these industries are delivering the values that are required by the personal protective equipment industry. 

Sandeep:
But, in some way the denim industry will try that with some products. I have been looking at some of the fashion brands, they have come out with designer masks made of denim. I was reading a report today that Japan has shipped 3.86 billion masks in the last one and a half months. And maybe they will also start making masks with denim sometime. 

Aamir:
There are certain things which are influencers and are topical in nature. So what happens is that something is going on, so for that there will be influence in this industry because we are very close linked to fashion and lifestyle but finally what continues something that is more permanent. So when you are offering a really good permanent solution then  it becomes permanent . For example ,you can see the whole denim industry moving into a stretch in a big way because that is providing a solution of giving you comfort. So comfort is an essential need, it is servicing that essential need. Similarly if you really see that work wear denim continues because denim is easy to handle , easy for production but in serving an essential need and has still not gone out of fashion. There will be certain influences that will be contemporary but the real thing that will go a long way will be when there will be a real consumer need that you are solving.

Sandeep:
In terms of sustainability, it has been such a big keyword for the last few years. How do you see sustainability changing after this crisis? Do you think becoming stronger or it will be losing its focus in some way? How do you see sustainability going after this crisis?

Aamir:
My view is that sustainability is something that has gained attraction over so many years because it is something which has been sort of driven by the consumers. Consumers are sort of wanting sustainability, they want to move towards a good green  planet and that’s why it is a need which is being translated to the brands who in turn  are pushing the supply chain. 

And if you really see this whole push  on sustainability has done good work. For example, this whole thing about zero liquid discharge of hazardous chemicals and you know the denim industry used to have this whole thing about sandblasting which was really bad for health and then it was this whole movement of public opinion against and finally sandblasting was banned. Similarly this whole conversation against   using PP spray is getting strong . So sustainability is something which is a big need for consumers and that’s why it will continue to be important . We have seen there are some people who really push the pedal on that. There are  some people who have been absolutely not compromising on that and so I think it’s a part of the DNA of organizations . 

In certain organizations it is very deeply embedded. Now the thing is that temporarily the focus would probably be on survival on coming out of this situation, so maybe there would be a lesser focus on sustainability . For me it is something like announcement that you’ll hear  when you get into the aircraft – in case of loss of oxygen   if you have a baby with you, you first put the mask on your face but objective is to save the baby (the objective is not to put the mask on your face and forget it) so there are certain things that you need to do, that you believe in , the things that you really stand for. Let’s say big changes that you’re driving as an organization . At Arvind we have a very strong belief in sustainability.

Sandeep:
Arvind has a very strong DNA to serve the community through CSR. Please update a little more on how currently things are moving in this regard?

Aamir:
CSR has a very broad definition and we all know that. I would like to share with you; our personal experience in these current times which was very interesting. As Arvind; we are doing a lot of activities but recently a very interesting study in human nature came to our notice. 

On campus where we have large operations in Ahmedabad there are villages around, there are many people who are coming from those villages. So we wanted to see if we can help people who are not able to come out of their home and to see what we can do. So we approached those villages and basically worked with the government. 

There is this local administration  and then there is the panchayat. So we approached the panchayats and the panchayat said that yes we are keen and we would like to run community kitchens. So we said that we would like to work with you and are happy to give you provisions for the community kitchen. Interestingly they came back to us and they said that you’re doing this good work, but we have approximately 10 days of provision with us, so please hold. 

We will work with these 10 days of provision that we have with us and then we will come back to you when we need more. Now this is such an insight that people in these times can think like this. Normally one would think, in such a situation, if you’re getting something; take it, keep it as  you l never know when you’ll need it. It really speaks so well about  these poor people. People in these villages have this amazing approach that hangs on let’s try and see whatever we have – can we manage with this. So, on a certain philosophical level there are a lot of people who have gone out and asked for help, but my heart goes out to those people who find it difficult to ask for help. Many people who are so high on their esteem, they find it difficult. Having said that , 10 days later those people came back and they said that you know  now we’re running out of rations can you please help us. So our team went to those villages and gave all support. So we have tied up with those villages and we have tied up with sarpanchs and we are working with the government and then we are also sort of working with delivery organizations who are being able to deliver stuff. 

So that’s what has been different and also we have been working more on personal protective equipment which comes certified from certain organizations. We have developed these kits and those are being given to the government.

Sandeep:
Yes, I saw that in the news and of course Arvind has always been obviously very strong in the community development and its wonderful. My next question is related to positives coming out from current situations. What are the strongest ones you see coming out from this crisis?

Aamir:
I feel that when we look at the numbers , 8 trillion dollars already have  been committed by  various governments like Germany and Italy-40% of their GDP , US – 10% of their GDP (2 trillion dollars), Japan-20% of their GDP( 1 trillion dollars)  So 8 trillion dollars have already been given by various countries and there is more coming and this has been given in the form of direct transfers, small and medium enterprises, form of equity and all kinds of support. So a huge amount of liquidity is going into the system. 

So as things improve I believe there will be a lot of liquidity, there will be fueling of demands. So as this problem settles down, in Germany and China stores have started opening, New York has opened stores, Zara has opened stores in Spain. In the US stores have already been open in some states . By 15th of May more states are getting back to work. So we see things will start. Of course, nobody has got a crystal ball, nobody can say with certainty. Even in India some kind of openings are happening over next few days , some more industries are opening and hopefully along with that better testing better equipment and more medical help will be there. So, let’s say with  so much of liquidity being  given to economies all around the world. Hopefully, things will be good, and we’ll see some good action as we come out of this.

Sandeep:
I am sure we will come out of this very soon and now let’s try to take up some questions from our Instagram viewers. First one “How fashion will change for denim posts for COVID 19 and what will run and what will not?”

Aamir:
For some time I think , it will be basics, necessities , workwear , kids wear that’s where the focus will begin. Then gradually as things settle, people will start focusing on fashion.

Sandeep:
Second one from the viewers “In India, we have been looking at excess capacities, will COVID rationalize this?”

Aamir:
For sure, that’s not only true for us but for all industries. One will definitely see that there will be some rationalization of capacities and across the supply chain, I feel that one has already seen customers  filing for chapter 11. 

Sandeep:
Do you want to add something else from your side regarding Arvind or for industry or for so many people who are watching this talk. Would you like to say something else ?

Aamir:
No , I just want to end with a couplet “ Sitaare doob ke karte hain anware sehar paida “ it is a couplet in Urdu which means that , once the stars go down, then the beauty and light of dawn emerges. I just want to end on a positive note and as things go along we will see our industry bouncing back. Denim is a very resilient industry It  has been around  for close to 150 years. It has a great future to look forward to. 

Sandeep:
It was a wonderful couplet. Thank You so much for coming for this talk.

Aamir:
Thank you so much

Video

Richard Tobin is the VP Marketing and Sales for the Mexican company Kaltex. Continuing the series of talks with senior denim professionals from around the world, Sandeep Agarwal took a Mexican perspective talking to him.

Sandeep
Hi Richard. How do you see the Mexican Textile Industry getting affected by the current situation?

Richard
Hi Sandeep. I think we all have to take a moment and look at our supply chains and how we do things and really come to a fundamentally understanding that it has to change. It’s a model that’s been in place for eons essentially and, I mean to conceive, to create, to produce, to put in the warehouse ,to hopefully sell. Its a model that’s broke and it was predicated on long supply chains that are difficult to manage and very hard to have real and substantial risk mitigation relative to the length and speculative nature of it. We need to compress the supply chain, we need to move to demand-based production that is more amenable to the realities of what’s being demanded, so it’s going to take technology.

Sandeep
So how do you define Demand-Based Production and how is this going to affect us in the current context?

Richard
In the current context, it’s going to be a struggle only because you have to have a position of all your input variables prior to production and you’ve got to have a projections based on what you think your consumption or demand is going to be and I think clearly at this moment that’s the most difficult thing to do. I think there are three steps to this situation we’re in and the process will go through so I would call it a triage (a three-phase process) which is
-First, a kind of crisis management, what are we doing the here and now to best maintain the semblance of a stable business.
-Then a transitional period where you have time to reflect and have more concrete thoughts and initiatives to make actionable for going forward and -Then in a transformative period where who , what and where on the other side of this will certainly not be what we were. So I think those are basically the three phases . But clearly I think at Kaltex we’ve gone through the crisis stage and are a bit more beginning to be in a transitional perspective in terms of our thoughts and focus.

Sandeep
How does it affect the entire cycle of fashion in terms of denim fashion? From the time you start your product development and you present to customers and orders are placed and the goods are shaped. How the entire cycle will be changed?

Richard
Yes, It will be changed. We have to address that and again it’s gonna have to come through technology, I think in the near term having a shorter supply chain , a nearshoring platform where you can respond quicker. If you are narrow and deep on the substrate per se, it’s the most logical way to proceed in terms of speeding up the cycle and delivering smaller capsule in season collections relative to driving the trends that are currently in demand, not ones that we’re projecting a year out because that’s just not really in tune with how the millenials behave . So I think that’s most easiest and obvious position to address to mitigate the long supply chains we consistently have become dependent on.

Sandeep
So actually we are looking at some kind of fast fashion, there are so many negatives about fast fashion but when we are talking about cycles especially when we are talking about shorter cycles that means more fast fashion.

Richard
Not really, I think fast fashion if you look at where they’re sourcing from it’s more predicated . I mean it’s absolutely predicated on speed . I’m not saying that it isn’t but it’s really more predicated on price and it’s really more a disposable apparel item and I think this is what we need to get away from and I think that value is going to be front and center. I think that price is important but it can’t be the driver or the drumbeat , that we march to consistently . We’ve got to come up with other ways to address what I believe will be a decrease of conspicuous consumption and a more benevolent behavior towards how we manage our resources. So if you nearshore and you have a quality item and you can turn it into a proper value proposition. Then real and substantive change can be accomplished.

Sandeep
So nearshoring is definitely going to be speeded up as an option for the US market.

Richard
Yes, I mean Mexico has a long history with America, it’s the third-largest trading partner with the US . It has a daily value of exchange relative to 1.25 billion dollars daily. The apparel and textile sector which is included in the GDP of the industrial sector which is 32 percent overall but the apparel textile portion of that is roughly 5 percent and Mexico’s the number one exporter to the US from Latin America. It’s the 15th largest economy based on GDP in the world and it’s the number one source for men’s five-pocket jeans in the US. So clearly, there is a means to an end here and I think that regional relevance in regards to Mexico would play an important role in the future.

Sandeep
How do you see the behavior of the buyers, big retailers where the cancellations whatever happened in Mexico probably there is not so much that whatever have happened in other countries.

Richard
We’ve had some adjustments not necessarily to the magnitude of the size that other sourcing regions globally have so in that regards . We , at Kaltex ,not only got very lucky but we also were able to become essential suppliers, in essential businesses and we are enjoying, robust activity for PPE gown both finished and fabrics supply as well as masks. Because we are the largest vertically integrated entity in the hemisphere and easily one of the top ten on overall volume if you consider all of our SBU’s. It’s really allowed us to participate and support the demand for these products.

Sandeep
So you are already supplying PPE gowns and other materials to the Mexican government.

Richard
We’re actually, considering that 80% of exports from Mexico go to the US . It’s really mainly back to the US . I’m not really involved in the national market per se but do know they do have activity there.We’re not fully staffed and are following CDC guidelines in terms of fewer people within the building, thermal imaging and screening and washing hands and wearing masks and such so we’re taking those precautions because our employees are a vital part of our operation. We’ve got to take care of them and so in that regard we’ve been very fortunate with no outbreak of C19 in our operational facilities.

Sandeep
So are you using this experience of producing all this Health Products PPE equipment to develop your denim also to a certain extent to be able to make it a part of the protection apparel ?

Richard
Yes, Sandeep. I believe there is really a potential and has a pathway for indigo based products. I don’t think it’s as big but certainly, with ozone, the finishing of some of the lighter weights could be used and just as a protective barrier not necessarily a functionality. Although I’m sure these are topical – there’s certainly a technology that we’re looking into that’s an embedded technology that we’re trialing and we’re very excited about and should be commercialized shortly .

Sandeep
What are the changes you see in denim as a product in the coming times?

Richard
I think that at this moment we should look back to relatable and existing technologies. Technologies that are available and really provide a good opportunity to use these technologies to move forward and are either finalized first and second step type technologies that don’t close the loop and others that have radical potential to change how we perceive the manufacturing of denim currently and there’s two, of particular interest to me. One is an entity in England that was written about and I believe it was January called Worn Again it’s essentially a technology that’s being scaled up in the lab now to try and help the separation of commingled fibres mainly cotton and polyester and which combination thereof, is about 80% of all clothing so we can really develop that technology and adopt it in a commercial way . Where we (Kaltex) have our ECHO By Kaltex concept of post-industrial waste recovery and we’ve put in a Capsule Collection into that composition, but if we had that technology and it was readily available on an industrial scale, we could then really complete the circle into the vast collection, at the point of purchase with brands and that would close that loop . Another technology I really like is Natural Core and this is a yarn based technology that allows for the ring dye color but done in the garment-dyeing process and so here you have the ability to stay neutral until you actually have a demand and order and so off this technology you can fracture into mass customization and truly on-demand . So I think technologies of this nature that are disruptive and allow you to redefine yourself or things that we really need to look at and I think they are quicker paths to circularity in solving some of the environmental issues as well, as opposed to artificial intelligence or virtual reality which would take billions of dollars of investment to have the machinery and the ability to really reconstitute and compress the current supply chain that we were in but those are two technologies that I like in particular and find interesting.

Sandeep
They’re very interesting and do you also see that as you talked about nearshoring but you also see that certain markets like US and Europe, they may want to have semi-finished goods coming to their countries and the finishing is done in their countries so that they can finish on demand.

Richard
Yes, bring in low value and then print and or laser them to really enhance the value . I think there’s some validity in that. It just becomes making a safe bet relative to what you think the future is going to be and again I think with the digital age and where we find ourselves, it’s a near term solution but long term I think there’s just better technology and opportunity, we really need to open our minds to it and probably realize we have a blank page that we can now create whichever we want and or see it’s not necessarily what we had thought it to be, so I think that’s the real possibility for sure.

Sandeep
Coming to retailers and buyers, they are in a big shock, how will they be coming out of the shock and kind of settling down in some way and looking at the future and trying to work out the ways and starting the supply chain in some small way.

Richard
I think that the three phases are the three T’s that I explained before – triage transaction and transformative are probably what everybody’s going through and I think that the brands, in particular, have some really big issues to tackle . I mean mainly they’ve got a season in the store that’s not going to be seen and maybe not to be be utilized  in the near term but certainly it will have to be repurposed and repackaged for a later date but then there’s the season that’s on order or some of it in some cases is on the water and the big question mark is once we have a soft opening of the economy what will demand look like and I don’t think anybody has the ability to predict that . I think for sure there will be an initial spike just for feel-good purchases but I think people are more concerned with shelter food and sustaining their families. So I think that’s a really a tough question for sure I know . Mckinsey has reported and they cited that 38% of the retailers globally were not earning the cost of capital prior to this so that numbers got to be 70- 80 percent now so there are some really towering challenges. But I also think that human nature is at its best , when you’re pushed into a corner you either rise to the challenge or not . So it’s almost a Darwinian cleansing that’s been forced upon us and what it looks like when we walk out the door again I don’t know . I’ve read in recent weeks that certain people have stepped up and have honored the integrity of their words to certain degrees . So I mean that’s encouraging and we have to see what these economies that are reopening ahead of us what happens there because it’s kind of a blueprint relative to what we might see several weeks later -but it’s the challenge of a lifetime and a career for many of us.

Sandeep
You’ll be opening in small ways so probably we will have more ideas from there you mean coming to three weeks, you’ll have an idea how things are going.

Richard
Yes for sure and our network is global so unfortunately, I think what we’re doing here is the modus operandi for some time for sure I look forward to seeing everybody again hopefully in the near future but for now I think that video conferencing is a reality and we need to find a way to work with it and use it to our advantage.

Sandeep
In terms of consumer behavior, are you seeing any changes? Do you see any particular big changes in their behavior  in the near future?

Richard
Yes, I think that at least I can speak from the US perspective . A lot of our growth was driven on the expansion of square footage and new store openings, so from that perspective this was a really people orientated crowded market space so to speak . And I think that will for sure further switch focus online and it will grow and I think the number of stores or outlets that are required to service the business will find its natural level and we certainly don’t need the extensive number of stores that we once had but how many I don’t know, but for sure or whatever brick and mortar becomes it better be an experiential destination where there’s a lot of interactivity with the customer base but also it needs to be socially designed to keep spacing in mind until we have a vaccine and an answer to this.

Sandeep
Coming to Mexico again, what do you see in the next year for the future for Mexico especially for the textile industry and denim industry?

Richard
I think it’s going be challenging, I think if your singular in what you produce and you’re primarily in denim only, that’s going to be tough because I think that the broader general market will hit a crater and then build back up off of that, but until we hit that crater and really understand what our bottom is, it’s going to be hard to figure out where to cast your eyes relative to what returns . So I think anybody that’s diversified in the textile segment has an opportunity to redefine themselves and as I mentioned our participation in PPE and masks before . It was a market that was an ancillary market in our Piece Dye business unit, but it wasn’t our driver per se and today it’s our driver, so it’s made us sit up and take notice of maybe opportunities that were around us that we had not looked at traditionally . So I think you need to be diversified just like a customer base you never want to let one client own the majority of your capacity and it’s better to have a diversified stream . At Kaltex , we have that ability that we go from home to denim , we go from spinning to weaving to dying to finished garments. So really we have the capability to offer where do you like to play, how would you like to play and, so on and so forth so I think that that versatility that option is a massive advantage.

Sandeep
The home textile segment seems to be kind of booming because people are spending more time at home, do you think so?

Richard
Ironically it’s a bright spot but I think people are home I can tell you, we’ve painted a room . I’ve ripped up my patio . I’m getting around to a lot of things , a list that has been denied attention for a while but yes I think it’s not only doing, but it is allowing you to feel some control over your environment which I think we’re all experiencing a lack thereof in a broader sense .So I think people are focused on it and it allows them to escape this unfortunate situation and yes it has seen an uptick.

Sandeep
So probably denim might try to get into  home textile segment in some way .

Richard
Absolutely, exploring other concepts we have here Kaltex, like Ozone finishing. I think that finishing, in particular, could be interesting for different segments and spaces, on top of the bed for sure would be one because of the crocking issue that it takes up and how clean the denim is, how pure the shade is . It does a nice job – I would agree I think that’s probably something that could be adventurous.

Sandeep
Any of the interesting products you are working on technologies specifically anything related to denim?

Richard
I wish I could mention the name. It’s just we’re in late stages of trial development of something that will be marketed broadly in many different segments . It’s an embedded technology – it has inherent functionality and we’re really excited about. What I would say is follow us on Newsroom by Kaltex on Instagram and look for the updates because it should be coming shortly but it will have relative traction for the moment, we are in.

Sandeep
What positives do you see from the situation?

Richard
I think that after every rain shower the Sun will show and today the Sun will set but it will surely rise tomorrow and that this pause is one that we usually don’t ever have an opportunity for . So it’s really a chance of a lifetime to sit with yourself – to ask yourself who and what you are and what your intentionality will be and once you reassess and take that long look again if we’re in the corner. I think it’s human nature to come out fighting and I think this is a fight – so I choose to stand and fight and I believe that there’s a brighter future ahead. I believe this is a great opportunity for starting new brands and breathing life into older brands and certainly opportunity for younger workers to step up and take leadership roles .And maintain an open mind and continue to evolve ourselves and learn . I would say that innovation and technology will lead the way as it has in other business sectors and I think for the context you got to be accountable and we want our legacy to be one of benevolence . Also , I think that the things that we’ve (Kaltex) done thus far, the things that the KALACH family have invested in speak to this and I’m looking forward to each and every day. I think I’m working harder now than when I was actually going to the office and it’s been an interesting experience. But I’m jazzed I’m going be positive, I’m going come out on top.

Sandeep
That’s a very positive statement and I think many of these people have been saying that they have been saying that we have been busier than before, which is a good statement. People are adjusting to the new reality, to the new normal and they are coming out as fighters as you are doing.

Richard
Oh it looks, maybe it’s because I am a Jersey guy – it’s just my nature but we always had a saying in the locker room in high school when I played lacrosse. “That cream always rises to the top “so it’s time to get churning and it’s time to get that cream to rise and everybody can be the part of it so I’m positive.

Sandeep
So anything else you would like to say to the friends who are here to the denim community ?

Richard
I miss all of you and I can’t wait to see you and I can’t wait to actually be able to actually shake somebody’s hand again.

Sandeep
Thank you for your inputs and I think everybody enjoyed it a lot so wish you all the best and take care and bye.

Richard:
Thank you, Sandeep

Video:

Continuing our series of Live talks at Instagram, Sandeep Agarwal from Denimsandjeans spoke to the owners of Artistic Milliners – Omer Ahmed and Murtaza Ahmed last week . Artisitic Milliners is one of the most well known denim mill globally and it was important to have the views of its owners on the current crisis and how their company and the industry is being affected by the current crisis under Covid19. They came out with their candid views and analysis of the situation , which we share with our readers below.

Sandeep

Hi Omer, Hi Murtaza . So  nice of you to join and I would like to first start by asking you how everything is in Pakistan, I hope everybody is healthy and everybody is safe and yourselves, your families and the company.

Omer

Hi Sandeep . So far so good. The family and the parents are at home. It’s tough to go to the office so we try to keep them in a strict lockdown and the kids are also home because schools are off so they’re also virtually connecting to their classmates on zoom every day so it’s all virtual.

Other than that, regarding Pakistan, we’ve been in lockdown now for a month and only yesterday the export sector was given conditional approval to start production in a limited capacity with extremely strict guidelines and so last two days we’ve just been busy going to the facilities making sure that all the plants had disinfected, making sure that all the workers coming in are following all the SOPs.

We have to make sure that everything is working smoothly. We have thermal gates at the entrance, we’re checking the temperature of all the workers coming in and if we see any symptoms those workers will be sent back. The good news is that so far whatever conversations we’ve had with our teams and our workers everyone is well aware of the global pandemic and so there’s a high level of consciousness in our workers so we feel given the situation, it’s a positive.

Sandeep

Definitely and that’s so important. So do you want to start in phases or are you going for 100% 

Omer

We’re starting in phases because number one there’s obviously the health and safety of our workers is our top priority at this point and number two there aren’t so many orders to ship . So both those two factors are there , so we’re starting slow and we want to just keep building up as we go. 

Another advantage is that most of our mills are quite spacious so that workers can relatively maintain social distances and other compliance measures mentioned by the CDC.

Sandeep

How’s the textile industry, in general, responding to this crisis?

Omer

Well some sectors actually surprisingly have an uptick in orders – for instance companies working in the home textile industry are actually quite packed up – and  business is picking up because of E-commerce and people  staying at  home . Then there is a need for medical linen for the hospitals. So home textiles have a demand but they’ve not been able to start up because the country’s been in strict down . So I think those factories and mills are up and running but all jeans related businesses are extremely slow at this point.

Sandeep

What are the initiatives taken by the Artistic Milliners during this situation in order to help the community under the current crisis ?

Murtaza

Thanks, Sandeep for having us. There’s a lot that we all need to do to ensure that those people who are part of the supply chain are well taken care of first and foremost. Our main focus at the moment is on safety at the workplace . Safety right now is a top priority as we already mentioned earlier just making sure that all the protocols are followed.

We need to ensure that the right amount of social distancing is taking place in the plants and in garment factories. It’s a bit tough because we’re used to so many people in the factories –  so it’s very important to ensure that all safety protocols are met,  that’s number one . And that’s the main priority for us right now . Whereas all the top leadership in the company has been mobilized to all hands on deck and everyone has been trained.

We started yesterday in a very small phased out approach so it’s sustainable and then ,of course apart from workplace safety right now,  we’re paying our salaries all in advance we paid the march salaries on 26th of March which was in advance for the month of March and we intend  to paying full salaries for the month of April and May. 

We’ve also developed equipment overall gowns which are level 1 and level 2 certified and we are providing them to the government of Sindh which is the local province in our country and we’re committed to donating ten thousand of them valued at around $150,000 . So those go into production today and we’ll be delivering it to the government in two weeks, so we’re very excited to help for the frontline workers.

We’ve also dedicated our daycare centers inside a factory for kids of frontline workers like doctors and nurses for their kids because they obviously are not spending so much time with their kids anymore .So we’ve opened up daycare centers in the factories for them.

We’ve also set up the AM Relief Fund for all those artistic millionaires employees who have been affected by this crisis so they can apply into this relief fund and we’ve earmarked $200,000 for this relief fund which will be dedicated to all our employees.

We’re also working with Fairtrade right now and distributing basic essential items for the workers with one of our brand partners who is also a partner of Fairtrade. So we’ve been accumulating that premium now for four quarters – so we intend on dispersing that whole premium to the workers this month . So lots going on but the CSR right now is a word that we want to use carefully . We want to talk more about how to get people back to work because that in itself is the most important part of our business.

Sandeep

Definitely, I mean these all these activities are definitely really going to help the community and it is really the responsibility of whoever is capable right now to do these kinds of things. May I ask you about the material sourcing because that would have also been affected right now and so is the marketing? How are you managing this?

Omer

So basically pre-COVID, the industry was booming in Pakistan. Textiles generally were doing really well – mills and factories which would be running at sixty percent capacity were fully booked, so we were having a really good moment in our country.  So it’s unfortunate what happened and we have to also keep in mind that China was first hit by the COVID . So what happened is that all our supplies coming from China were delayed initially and then we saw such a huge uptick in demand that we rushed to stock up knowing there was a lot of uncertainty in China at that point . So we wanted to load up on green stocks but then USA and EU got hit by covid-19, hence we ended up with a lot of inventory in-house .

In terms of stock, we have different types of yarns ,fibers, chemicals, dye stuff – so in the short-term we need to figure out how to consume all these different raw materials . That’s step one because we want to create maximum liquidity and unlock our cash flows .We are financially extremely strong but obviously in these times you do need maximum liquidity. Once the stores open up, we have to find a way to rationalise our supply base, we cannot do that by ourselves as we are a B2B . 

We’ve been hearing a lot about product development going digital – so obviously we’re exploring that . But we’re not sure how much of the product development cycle we can actually move to a digital platform as denim end of the day is a touch and feel business . 

Sandeep

At this point, we all are in the learning stage and probably the situation is so dynamic that it’s changing every day so we really need to learn every day. How do you think that any market is going to change? How the various segments of the denim market are really going to be affected -which segment is going to be more affected and the segment is likely to be still better off 

Omer

Currently loungewear and tops are selling well. Loungewear is selling because people are home and they want to be comfortable and tops are selling because everyone’s on zoom or some sort of virtual platform speaking to their friends/colleagues. So those two areas are doing well and obviously there’s athletic wear . There was a lot of awareness around health pre-covid but I think that’s gone into overdrive and so those areas are still doing better than denim.

In terms of impact on denim in the short term –  the general market consensus about poor quality denim or low-value denim and how its not going to last – sure I agree but I feel that the consumer is much more literate about the product than they were 10 years or 15 years ago. They’re actually extremely smart so I think if you look at the innovation cycle we have been innovating, our brands have been making us innovate in the last 10 years . If you think of where we were 15 years ago in our mill we were just running  two products; one an open-end product and the other was ring.  

In these 15 years, we’ve added stretch denim, super-stretch and now hyper stretch and then you have all these amazing fibers in the mix and then obviously all the sustainable fibers coming from the other end . So we’ve just been developing way too much I feel. Right now there is a lot of product in the market and so in terms of the product I think we’re going to maintain the status quo for at least another six-seven months because again everyone has stock , everyone has a lot of innovation on the floor. Everyone’s going to try to utilize what they have and so I think the lesson to be learned here regarding innovation is that often we are confusing a great concept with a great product and to make a great concept into a great product is a long journey. So there are a lot of half-cooked ideas/innovations at the store level and it’s a very good time to rationalize innovation as well and keep what’s working and get rid of all the gimmicks because there are a lot of gimmicks and we are all partially guilty of that. 

Sandeep

And we all are guilty because we’ve been trying to run faster than the other 

Omer

That’s what comes down to right now and it’s not just us, it’s the brands in the same position . They are all trying to out  innovate each other . So I think it’s a good time to reflect on that part of the business. 

 Sandeep

And consolidate and probably streamline the whole thing with a sharper focus. 

Omer

We have no option especially for the next six months  . Markets are contracting and so we have no option , we have to become leaner , we have to become more agile and have to become more flexible and we have to do it as an industry.  I can’t do that on my own –  so we have to all work together and we have a lot of time to have these conversations now so we must take advantage of that.

Sandeep

Both the fabric and garment have been affected by this crisis . Since you manufacture both – have you been affected equally, or is it different in view of so many cancellations ?

Murtaza

Of course, all segments of the supply chain have been severely affected even our yarn mills have been affected, I think the difference between raw material and the finished product is that we can still use fabric, most of our customers are strategic so we can use our fabrics at a later point as they are long-standing proven fabrics 

On the garments, the problem that many companies have faced and why it’s such there have been so many articles about it as well is because it’s finished product, once you have the label of a customer on it or a button or a rivet of branding on it ,  the product belongs to the end consumer . So I think it’s a bit different because these are finished goods but having said that of course I mean all parts of the supply chain have been affected and our retail partners.

I think there’s been a lot of press about retail partners not standing up to their obligations but I think that most retail partners have been very supportive very understanding  of the situation and a lot of them have been very ethical also . So I think we should give some credit over there because I think there’s been a lot of negative press for them . But I think they’ve tried their best – it’s a very difficult situation where your stores are closed and there is no more sale and  it’s force majeure . So I think initially a lot of brands and a lot of business leaders panicked  , but that’s fine . That’s the whole idea of crisis management. You manage the crisis every day as it comes . So I think the first reactions were a bit tough but then sanity prevailed and we all worked it out . And at least we can speak for our business – all our strategic customers have been very understanding and are working with us to provide good solutions and we’re very happy to partner with them in these times.

 Sandeep

What we have been hearing from the press, of course, the companies know much better, some of the retailers’ responses to this were probably slow and some were not really the best of responses.

Murtaza

Definitely trying and I think also from a supplier perspective it’s important to be rationalized with who you work with as well. You have to think that pre-COVID crisis there were a lot of retailers and some companies that were not doing so well and I think some business models in all parts of the supply chain from retail to vendors, everyone in the supply chain whoever has a weak business model is probably going to suffer. So I think it’s a good lesson for the future that and a lot of balance sheet principles need to be applied . I think more conservative businesses will do better in the future .

Sandeep

In terms of consumers, let’s say in Europe and US , what do you feel post-crisis in next few months what would be their responses once  they come out of the situation . 

Murtaza

I think definitely consumption will go down. That’s for sure . Consumption will go down and the market will shrink. I don’t think it’s going to be a top priority for people in the long term to buy apparel or luxury items.

For sure in the short term, once the crisis is over I think that apparel demand  will change. People will change their clothes just like they’re changing their bedsheets already. I know for sure based on my personal experience that the pair of jeans which I am wearing today – most likely I’m not going to wear because I’m going in the jeans every day to the factories and I’m exposed, It’s just an association of memory .Also so I think they will and I think most retailers are preparing for that kind of uptick that happens but from what we’re seeing from a garment perspective,  we’re seeing the numbers  fall in Holiday . So you’ve skipped one season of Summer already and Fall / Holiday merging so you’re almost skipping two seasons in the upcoming fall so that tells you very simple because our retail partners also thinking that demand will go down by 50% we’re on both sides of the ocean on Europe and the USA so that’s what I think about.

Sandeep

And the demarcation between the seasons will be kind of fading out?

Murtaza

That’s already changed that whole four-season cycle. If you had 12 collections a year they’re going to probably become two or three, those four seasons are becoming two.

I think that seasonal buyers will definitely go down – we’re seeing shorts and skirts and very seasonal items . I think from a design perspective customers will start merging designs in whereby they can use something that is spring can also play in fall which we’ve never heard of before right ? . But you can if you design smartly you can how  take one product and make multiple multiple finishes on that product by the use of laser and that exactly is what the FLX program is and that’s going to become that makes more and makes more sense now because you can take one base and make it into multiple washes . So those kinds of things will become important and it will be exciting to see what t brands do about it. 

Sandeep

It will be kind of like you are adding more value to each stage  whether its fiber, yarn, dyeing , finishing , weaving , finishing , sewing etc. so that the garment becomes multi-seasonal?

Murtaza

Absolutely yes, I agree with that. That’s where it seems to be heading that’s the way it should head also because less and fewer garments that go into the landfill, more and more garments that are going direct to the consumer and I think this rationalization in the long term will make everyone’s R&D costs , sampling cost-  everything rationalized going forward.

Sandeep

One more thing which is very important in sustainability. Sustainability has been such a strong word for the last few years and there have been so many varied definitions about it, people have been talking and everybody is claiming that we are sustainable, the brands are coming out with their own definitions- so will we have more clarity in the coming time or it will be more confusing for all of us?

Omer

How much time do we have(smiles)? It’s a complex topic at this point but I think there is no better time to actually talk about it and I’ll try to put some perspective on it. In our industry, we started talking more about sustainability let’s say 15 years ago at the trade shows .So if you look at the definition of sustainability as it pertains to our planet it’s regarding the preservation of natural resources and the reduction of carbon emissions of greenhouse gases that’s the basic definition . So that’s one part of it but what’s happened is that in the last 15 years or so it’s become more about the Business of Sustainability and that is great, that’s exciting, that’s great marketing, that’s great to leverage that as innovation but I think it’s taking a toll (on the supply-chain).

In my opinion we need to focus on a top-down approach where we need to work on high-impact initiatives when it comes to sustainability like renewable energy and water stewardship. 

So, for instance, around 85 percent of the water we use in our plants is recycled.  Initial investment for such projects is high but in the long-term they pay for themselves. So we need to have a stronger foundation when it comes to sustainability and then when it comes to the business of sustainability, we need to make sure we streamline the products that we find sustainable.

Sandeep

What do you think from where the push should come from for sustainability – from the retailers or the consumers or from the authorities? 

Omer

It’s the brands, for instance we implemented the Cradle to Cradle certification which we feel is still one of the most comprehensive sustainability initiatives out there because it’s holistic – covering renewable energy , material mix, ingredient mix and it now has a social angle to it too. So we feel so far that’s been the most comprehensive and they’ve already done a lot of good work in denim and when we did that project, since we were the first ones to do it , it took us over a year to get certified and there were obstacles which we eventually overcame. The best part about it was that it was open-sourced.

Sandeep

And even the consumer perception is different around the world. So do you think that consumer behavior will still be different in different regions around the world or will the consumer response post-crisis be different?

Omer

Consumers will be more conscious about the product and how it’s made .  I don’t think they will be differentiating between one polyester fiber or the other, again I’m just using that as an example, no offense to the polyester suppliers . But they do not differentiate because this again there’s so much complexity in the business of sustainability that some of them don’t understand. So I don’t think the consumer will understand the difference. What they will understand are absolutes when it comes to sustainability. 

Other than that,  region to region,  I’m not sure how consumer behavior will change, depends on how much disposable income different consumers have in different areas in the world. 

So we don’t know much about that but what we do know is that if you at least look at the younger generations . Gen Z and Gen Alpha even pre-pandemic were more inclined towards experiences than products – it’s a very good time for brands and retailers to start re-thinking the consumer experience. For example, Amazon did their Go stores, you will see more eCommerce companies add brick-and-mortar and you will see them do it right . 

The problem is that  people are not so much interested in merchandising stores anymore and stores were empty even before the pandemic, so brick-and-mortar model needs to evolve into an experience center model where there is some way of engaging the consumer – be it through product customization or any other mode of engagement. 

 Sandeep

So this current crisis has so many negatives that we all been saying, what are the positives you and what are both of you are seeing, what are the positives which are coming out of from this

Murtaza

I mean yeah it’s an interesting question, there’s a lot of positives I mean first of all we have to remain positive right we have to look for the bright side. It’s very important because I’ll just give you a very small example . I was speaking to my father last night at dinner and I told him I said I don’t like it that my factory is there dark now I don’t see any lights and I don’t like how it looks it gives me a bad feeling so he said that – well when I look at it I imagine it with the lights on and I thought about that when I went to bed and I was like okay, he was right about that and I so it’s how you look at things.

I guess I think we all need to remain positive I think there’s a lot of learnings I think there’s a lot of opportunities I think that production is going to become a complete demand based one  I think you have to be extremely lean,  I think you have to be highly automated in all parts of the night rain especially the value-added part. 

Pakistan is very very far away from that still I think that there’s a lot that needs to be done and it’s a lot of fun working with customers as their models will change . I think nearshoring will become very important especially for North America clients so opportunities are everywhere right now but of course We have to navigate these times because while there is an opportunity there’s also massive cash crunch that everyone has – so you have to really pick and choose which opportunity you want to go for but then again it’s all about how you see things . I mean we are already seeing things turn around hopefully and so we hope for the best going forward.

Sandeep

What are the keywords which you feel are really impactful?

Omer

The number one keyword would be ‘RESPONSIBLE ’, we all have to truly be more responsible and I’m not saying this as marketing jargon I just mean we have to be more responsible in terms of the way we conduct ourselves and the way we produce new products.

The second would be ‘QUALITY’ – High quality products are timeless

Third – PERFORMANCE DRIVEN – Jeans will need to have more performance attributes like well-being, durability and comfort. 

Sandeep 

I think these are very strong key takeaways and it has been a real pleasure speaking to both of you and really thank you for joining and taking your time. I think a lot of people are enjoying it on Instagram.  

One question from the viewers is : How Artistic Milliners aims to get out of the situation faster than others?

Murtaza

I guess we wait to leverage our relationships more than ever . We are trying to offer new operating models to our value-added partners, we’re trying to make our workplaces as safe as possible we’re trying to consolidate our workplaces as well so we’re trying to get out of this faster by becoming more nimble by becoming more flexible and by partnering deeper I think that looks nimble and flexible everyone is becoming and like I said I don’t think when retailers are trying to become nimble that they get so much bad press.

I think we all have to become nimble . So I think first is to reconsolidate and reorganize everything  -you cannot run the same way and then  setting up a trajectory to  take off from.  I think right now is the time to set up the base to take off for the future 

Sandeep

I would say it has been a learning experience and it’s great to see what you guys are doing out there and I really wish all the best to all of you and everyone at artistic and everyone in Pakistan also so that we really hope that all of us come out of it. Thank you so much 

Murataza & Omer

Thank you Sandeep, Take care. 

Video

Richard Atkins is a renowned denim product developer from Hong Kong and has worked with some of the most well known brands and supply chain companies in the world . Sandeep Agarwal spoke to him to get his unique perspective of the current situation as he is based in HK and works with clients in US/ Europe and supply chain partners in Vietnam, Bangladesh, China etc . He shares his views of the crisis and how it affects us all.

Sandeep

Hi Richard. Hope you are doing great . I would say HK seems to have managed the current crisis pretty well.

Richard

Hi Sandeep . I am fine and hope you are as well !
Yes, it’s good actually and also we’ve had this for a long time, and we all need to sanitize our hands quite often every hour and the mask has always been a dominant thing in Hong Kong. When we first saw it, it was quite, as a westerner, confusing where our beliefs were if you wear a mask something is wrong with you, but now if you wear a mask, it has been considered a protective thing.

Sandeep

If we see from this perspective and compared to Europe, US and other countries, then, of course, HK looks pretty good and China has already recovered from the crisis and is in good condition and Taiwan is okay, Vietnam is okay. I would say this region is better off.

 Richard

 I think the problem we Hong Kong got caught up in to be honest, is that it’s not just Corona. But for the last six-eight months, we have had multiple problems. We first had the trade war with the USA and China and Hong Kong sat in the middle as a trader. Then we had the Hong Kong protests for six months, and then I think the corona came in around the end of January. Which was the same time as Chinese New Year when everybody migrated to go to see their families and obviously that was the time it started spreading globally, in a freaky way.

Sandeep

It’s really freaky and the way things are developing is still really serious, and we don’t know actually how things are going to be shaped in coming times, but looking at Hong Kong and also China, it gives you hope that at least you know you can control it to a certain extent.

Richard

 It’s tough, and I think for the 1st-month people we were all in denial that this was happening and I always carried on working and travelling. Then a lot of people started saying I don’t think we should be travelling, but I had a job to do so I didn’t really think about the consequences.

Sandeep

So you travel most of the time to Europe and Bangladesh?

Richard

Most of the time I travel to Vietnam. Obviously at the moment, Bangladesh is closed for business until the end of the month as well as Pakistan.

Sandeep

 Now coming to our industry , you are into product development and you develop collections and you interact with all the brands and clients in the factory, how has your work has been changed due to this virus ? 

Richard

At the moment, my job has changed a lot, my travel plans on freeze, so everything I’m doing at the moment is digitally remote so I’ve got my team’s working on whatsapp or I’m using a kind of system to trust their eyes and their taste. I’m sure you know everybody’s got different tastes. I’m pretty good at taking the designers’ inspiration and trying to get their taste level. The guys in the laundries, they’re not into that kind of aesthetics kind of feel to anything. 

 As a product developer, I work with the designers and their expectations. To create beautiful garments which they’ve designed. If I allow the factory to work 100% on that and then we send the garment to them. I don’t think their expectations will be made. I’m not saying that the workers can’t do what the designers expect, but their interpretation would be very different.

 Currently, the process is slow as I do it digitally, I’m talking to them on every process. I need to see photographs of each stage which takes time and a lot of patience as well some of the guys get so mad with me because I want to see high- resolution photographs just to see if there are highs or lows are different or is it correct. 

 I’m basically watching individual sign-offs that create the product. We also need to handle sign off in Hong Kong for the majority of our stuff for the German market. German shops are closed, and all the teams in Germany are working from home. I have to be kind of babysitting the whole process and work with our technical team. We have to evaluate and process for each garment to go forward into production. We kind of need to believe in our team that it’ll be okay in the future because we’re not even sure if it’s accepted once it all starts up.

We’re trying to keep it as a high standard as possible; nothing is missed before we go forward on a style. Our customers are still asking for the products, and they are not asking to hold back or stop it. So we still have our supply chain, we have actually quite a lot of okay smaller orders going forward. 

We don’t just do denim here; we also do knit. We’ve actually been able to handle slowing down cut dates or reducing units that are already in work. We still need to have a reduction or percentage overall. If its late though into the market for knits they cancel but knit categories were down 30-35 % of the production, which is so sad but we can’t stop it either.

Sandeep

So denim is in a better place compared to other products ?

Richard

The beauty of denim is that it is a sustainable kind of garment, so it doesn’t affect our sales so much. If the shops open, it will sell. Compared to other types of seasonal products. For example, if a sweater is put into the store for the summer, you never know if it’s gonna sell. It might be hot, but as far as the jeans are concerned, everybody still buys jeans. It might reduce in quantity a little bit, but sales are similar all year round.

Sandeep

Are you working on seasons, I mean, is there any product development undergoing?

Richard

We went to European in the beginning of February to introduce spring/summer collections to the designers. They were picked and were ready for the next stage, we came back, and we started to do the second kind of fit garments, and then we had this huge problem. Which led to the complete stop of the supply chain. We’re lucky that all garments didn’t go into production.

But last week, we sat down around the table. We discussed why we don’t look at autumn winter because even if we make the spring-summer and put it into production, they probably would deliver into the shops in the wrong season. That’s the pipeline, so messed up at the moment because nothing is open. There’s no need to make the garment at this moment in time which is crazy. I’ve never seen this ever in my career.

Sandeep

None of us knew situations are like the second world war similar kind of situation

Richard

 I think ten years ago we had a recession in the UK and we understood that there’s a recession in the UK. We all focused on the US trade to move the sales away from the UK. This time issue is global and when you sit as a product development that’s in the middle, we see the both ends erode together, there’s a huge issue!  

We can see the shops at one end and what they’re doing online and what they’re talking about, reading it in the news. Then we sit and listen to the factories and the weavers, and the dyestuff chemical companies. Telling us a very different story. We are supposed to be transparent in the supply chain but it’s interesting when we read the news where it’s just a blanket of false interests. What I’m hearing sitting in the back is it’s not reality it’s crazy, it’s scary!

Sandeep

So your production mainly takes place in Vietnam?

Richard

 We split our production into three different countries. Vietnam is one of our main destinations for our mid-range, and that’s with a majorly with TNT (factory name) then we got our Bangladesh set up. We have an office in Dhaka and are just building more of a denim team kind of push. Then we also have Pakistan with DCC and Dubai (desert studios), so we are covered.

Sandeep

So out of these three locations in next one year where do you see that it will be probably a little bit safer for you, not too safer maybe which might be more focused ?

Richard

At the moment, I don’t know what the future is when they open up. When I’m talking to the factory owners they’re very positive, they have optimism, and I like that. They need that drive because what I’ve seen in the last five six weeks, they’ve handled the situation exceptionally well with the brands but basically brands have bruised their relationship. I won’t even say bruised I think they have destroyed their relationship with some of their orders.

Sandeep

Are these brands really going out of the market or they will try to come back?

RIchard

 Some of the big brands have bigger orders and quantities haven’t just destroyed the factory itself, they destroy the workers, their lives. I can’t see some of these factories surviving so that they’re gonna have to be redundant because no one’s gonna support them. 

Sandeep

What about the garment factories, let’s say in Vietnam, all they were dealing with these customers, will they survive this cancellation because it’s huge?

 Richard

It’s a terrible thing, because everybody I look at…. just say the UK as a front-end part. All these people at the moment are staying at home and when they start to shop, will their response be similar before the lockdown? Will these big boxed brands survive again? I’m hoping that while people stayed at home, they started to appreciate quality garments. Garments that don’t fall apart because they’re on just the tenth wash. They might have a better understanding of quality. In the future when we talk about quality, then it’s sustainable, and they don’t need to buy that many t-shirts. Who needs that many t-shirts anyway? 

Unfortunately, our culture at the moment is about the budget – how much can we buy? How much you feel proud that you just came out of a shop with five items of garments. Just buy one that will last several years. We need to change that mentality, maybe during lockdown people start realizing that it’s good not just to keep spending. I hope, but maybe I’m just dreaming.

Sandeep

 We can also get some idea from what’s happening in China because in a way they’re ahead of us. They got the crisis first and they came out of first, so looking at the consumer behaviour there, what do you think?

Richard

They’re very cautious buyers at the moment, which is really interesting, before that they would buy something very similar to Europe. They would buy in mass, a lot of it, but one thing about China was they weren’t just buying the cheaper garments, they were buying the expensive stuff in mass as well.

So they have the money behind them, and this is one thing about Hong Kong, our tourism from China was one of the big things that kept our economy booming. Then because we’ve had trade war, the protesters and corona we are not seeing many mainland buyers shopping. They feel quite threatened to come to Hong Kong and then that’s another political problem that we’ve got to look at, but Corona has definitely pushed the barrier that’s affected China’s shopping slowing down. People are going shopping but very calm and responsible, and they’re not buying huge quantities.

Sandeep

Do you think online retail will win ?

Richard

I think obviously the digital platforms, not just the shops but shops online. I think that they’re definitely going to have the advantage just because people are gonna be so scared to touch people. They just order online and all of a sudden they can get the garment that they wanted. So I think the pros out of this is that the digital world will be the winner, but also on the supply chain we can’t do everything digitally like the shop. At the front will be pushed more into the digital age but the supply chain still needs to be handled by a person.

Sandeep

So this is from the consumer side and as you said I believe also In the USA and EU that the consumers will be reacting cautiously and probably as you said that quality will be the key for consumers if they’re buying less, they will buy higher quality.

Richard

I hope so this is just my personal thing that I just hope that people realize that buying this fast fashion is not healthy. It’s not good, even when we go into the sustainability side and how much garments we dump into the landfills. I read an article the other day that 95 percent of the garments could be recycled, but we only recycle 5% globally 

Sandeep

That’s really sad, even from the fresh production. I believe that 15% of the production is actually going to the landfills without being used. 

Richard

I actually had a question, we ‘ve rapidly need these face masks and that they’re needed in society to stop the spreading of corona. Are they made in a sustainable way? Are they made with fabric that is tested? When we make the garments we make with compliance at mind? Can that fabric be recycled as an end process? Is there a circular market?

All of a sudden, I see all these big orders of 10 million masks here, 10 million masks there. Have we done the same research what we do in the supply chain to make the jeans? Because I feel in a year, two years, are we gonna see face masks floating in the ocean instead of a coca-cola bottle?

Sandeep

One new point looking from the retailer point of view: what right now in touch with the designers like you and are asking for new products to be developed, so have they changed their requirements in some way to let’s say to have special finishes in the garment or the special characteristics?

Richard

Basically, at the moment a team is staying at home for the last month so on our side I couldn’t say anything that we’ve gone in that direction. I do know when I’ve been in the laundries that there are several chemicals that are on the market at the moment. People are testing whether it’s antibacterial, reducing bacteria as well as fungi. Must be some kind of fashion kind of driven trend because I still don’t think it has any connection to stop corona, to be honest. Corona is such a small kind of virus it’s gonna go through any fabric that we’re gonna produce especially in the denim field.

Sandeep

What changes do you see in the industry in coming one year?

Richard

At this moment, I think the influence of people being inside is going to be reflected on their denim types and I think it is gonna be darker which I feel is just a comforting kind of colour. That’s just me, I prefer darker indigo to a light indigo. I feel like the lighter coloured indigo shows dirt easier. I can see dirt on darker indigo, even though it might be dirty it’s still crisp and clean looking. It might not be, but it still looks comforting and right going into autumn-winter.

 I feel that the internal of the Jeans will be essential and could be brushed. So it’s more like quilting and like being in a cocoon. Simulating wearing your pyjamas, all the time. You know that connection, I feel might be a trend. More stretch and super stretch denim might be seen more as well for comfort. 

Sandeep

Any other positive you see from this situation?

Richard

The positives are that it’s opened up the supply chain and makes it a bit more transparent than before. It’s got more transparent and shows the customer’s loyalty. Do you really want this type of customer in your portfolio for the future? This is positive even though it might be a cynical twist. In the end, I want to be transparent or totally visible to all our customers, if there’s a problem we can fix it together. If I’ve got a demanding customer and the supply chain is not transparent, then we have a collapse. It doesn’t matter how many units they might place, if you don’t get paid, you still get zero profit!

It’s useless if you run your factory and place all these garments in the lines but don’t get paid. It’s a good thing where we got all the help from the mills. Being very supportive and obviously, that’s gonna be a positive link in the future. Relationships will be together on the back end. 

I’m hoping that there are really good brands and companies in the front end that keep the alignment of the supply chain. Everybody looks after each other and doesn’t just look singular. I also think that the supply chains might grow in the countries where they designed. Corona has basically made it transparent and shows the weakness of globalization supply chain in production. For example: If our production closes due to a natural disaster. Having a closer source reserve reduces the carnage of the ripple effect in the supply chain. I think we should think about this for the future. I don’t think it’s gonna be a huge thing unless we’re more dynamic.

I think the customer will feel more gratitude and feel humble that it’s made in their country as well.…..I’m trying to come up with a word here, just homegrown and they’re not relying on Shipments that take more than 30 days just to ship. I think it’s an exciting kind of future for us all. I think because of this breakdown in the supply chain everything is up in the air, so we need to be dynamic, but definitely, you have to stay together, we’ve got to work together as a team!

Sandeep

I think the relationships will probably be more deep and stronger ,even in terms of buyers and suppliers. They also would like to work much more strongly with each other. 

Richard

Absolutely, all of us need to trust each other, and I could say the positive is that the names of the bad guys are not getting away. They are being exposed, showing the world how they have mistreated their supply chain. I just hope that the customer understands and sees and feels what we have to handle. Maybe they think “Oh where’s that wonderful brand that we used to buy lots of garments from…. oh, it’s gone, bankrupt!

I want them to change their mind and to appreciate what they’re buying.

Sandeep

You’re absolutely correct so it has been a lovely discussion with you Richard,  so many insights from you because you are so much so connected to the whole all the segments of the supply chain, you know and so deeply for so many decades so it’s lovely to have your views.

Richard

 Oh thank you thank you

Video

In our continued quest to get views of different stakeholders of the global denim industry , people whose views matter, we spoke to Ebru Debbag – Executive Director, Global Sales and Marketing  Soorty Enterprises , (Pakistan) on how she sees the impact #Covidtimes will have on all of us. Sandeep Agarwal spoke to her to get his views on the situation on our Denimsandjeans Instagram and we reproduce parts of the talk.

Sandeep:
Hi Ebru , How are you ?

Ebru:
Hi Sandeep, I am good . How are you?

Sandeep:
I am fine. So , it is lockdown times and I believe you must be doing lot of yoga as you are an yoga expert.

Ebru:
Yes I am doing Yoga and meditation.

Sandeep:
I need to learn from you sometime.So how’s everything? how these difficult times and how are you hoping ?

Ebru:
Both on individual basis, on community ,on business we are in this all together.The whole globe is suffering so I don’t think that there has been such an one single issue that unfortunately has united us all and I think I am looking at how to learn from this time. Actually this is a time that we will tell our grandchildren about and we have to make more use of what’s happening right now. So; I think it’s essential to try to read in between the lines you know. I mean we have time to do this; so we have to settle down and we have to read in between the lines both as individuals and on business level.

Sandeep:
So on a personal level and professional level what changes do you feel have come and  what do you think how you will make adjustments to these changes ?

Ebru:
I think it’s too early to make very clear predictions .So it’s very important to acknowledge what’s happening right now and there’s a lot of information .There’s a lot of misinformation as well regarding the virus regarding what’s going to happen. So; I don’t think anybody right now knows how this situation will evolve .We definitely know that on the business level that there will be a reduction in global spending some say 40 percent some say 50 percent but definitely. We’re seeing this across all industries; businesses are shrinking. So how do we really maintain the shrinkage and not turn it into a whole destruction and closure .That’s what we’re looking at as the whole industry. There are many things happening on the personal level of course .It’s a learning process , I’m a very positive person. I try to look at the positive side of things and try to learn from the situations .I’m trying very hard to understand first, acknowledge this situation, assess myself and then reacting and I think this is also relevant on the business level. It’s very important first of all to assess. Make an assessment of our situation on the company level, on the industry level, on the community level. Look at our relationships, look at how we build our communities how we related to our customers, how we related to our families, to the whole supply chain. This assessment is very important I think and then as time goes by I think we will be able to make more predictions into the future, I’m reading a lot of reports, I’m trying to understand and learn from different industries not just looking at the fashion industry so that we can benefit and be tempted to use what’s happening in the different industries.

Sandeep:
So what’s happening in SOORTY as a company from Pakistan. So; what do you see the Pakistan textile industry, how they are adjusting themselves? and how they are responding to this crisis?

Ebru:
We are currently in lockdown and lockdown is extended till April 13th. Before we went into lockdown, we wanted to make sure that we can again bring safety and health to our employees. That was our priority when before we went into lockdown. We implemented many measures to make sure that we can ensure a safe working environment and currently we have helped build an isolation ward as well as an intensive care unit at the National Institute of Child Health in Karachi. National Institute of Child Health have in Karachi actually caters to the needs of the families who do not have the necessary resources. So; again it’s how you relate to your community defines your authenticity as well. It’s not any marketing effort and I would even not call this a CSR effort. It’s coming from a very genuine place and a reach out so that we can really relate to our communities. We are also looking at what we can do once the lock downs are lifted to ensure that we can guarantee a safe and healthy working environment for our employees. This is our priority. We’re looking more at the human side and of course business is important as it is what makes us move forward, but I think it’s essential to look at the human side of the business. At times as such humanity comes through the leadership. This just doesn’t happen overnight; you either have it or you don’t and if you have it you put it into action. We’re making a lot of leadership efforts to make sure that we put our humanity in action.

Sandeep:
So in terms of consumer because now the consumer is already around the world has faced this problem and the most of the people in lockdown. You think this is changing the perception of consumers over a period of time ? and is it already changed in relation to fashion and shopping ?

Ebru:
For sure like we’ve mentioned that the global spending is reduced 40 to 50 percent and apparel industry, fashion industry is impacted in a huge way . So; we will definitely live through the consequences. As for the denim industry , the consumer had already started to become more aware of sustainability , the environmental impact that the industry was making and now I think we will see more value driven consumption. There will be a need for more authenticity and purposeful design . This is going to become very important . The consumers will look for quality and value and this value is not related only to the product, it’s related more to the system. So; #whomademyclothes will become more of a mainstream and symbol of transparency. Storytelling will become very important. The other aspect is we are now embracing a digital life, so we will see more on-demand consumption happening and this on-demand consumption will also drive on demand manufacturing. Again; we need to look into what this means for denim and jeans. For example; how we can make perfect fits. Definitely demand driven businesses will be very important because we will not produce for landfills anymore. We will need to get the real data to drop business models to make sure that we can produce what’s going to sell out in the market. Consumer will demand more storytelling but again more attentive storytelling, Digital and authentic storytelling; not just explaining the beauty of the product but more explaining where it’s coming from, how it’s made, what takes it to make one product, what’s the environmental impact. All these features are going to be embedded in one single product. We’re looking at more of a system starting from products to collections. I think it’s very important to understand that we are now embracing a no touch economy and it has totally different dynamics than what we were used to so we have to break it down to understand what this means for our industry and for our business. We worked out a digital garment at SOORTY and this is how we launched our cradle to cradle denim fabric and it was tough. This was 2 years ago, so a lot of innovation came in the recent two years. Denim is not very easy to work out digitally because you get you have so many different aspects of the fabric that you integrate into the washing which makes the product itself. We have to understand how we can cater to all these needs. There’s a lot to be done and progressive companies, innovative companies, creative companies who can really relate to all these different aspects of the future will accomplish to exist.

Sandeep:
The digital denim that you mentioned just now in cradle to cradle, can you explain a little more how you really create ? is it you start from the yarn stage or how does it work ?

Ebru:
C2C is a system design and first of all it’s a third party authorization; the certification of not just the product as the system needs to be authorized as well. It’s how you design a product where you can use only certain ingredients. The raw materials, the dye stuff you can use are specified and you need to define a process which is secure to produce a cradle-to-cradle product. Then you go through all this very rigorous certification and you get your product certified. So we hold the first the cradle-to-cradle certification both for fabrics and jeans .We wanted to utilize our advantage of being a vertical company and this is how we approached the system and we did not go for one product and have a defined the process of cradle to cradle, and any product that can pass through that defined process is C2C certified.

Sandeep:
You mentioned couple of points, so one is storytelling to the consumer. Now that has been I would say the weakest link in the chain. Whenever we consider what we’re trying to communicate to the consumer , consumer is lost. He doesn’t know really which story to follow, which brand to follow. Every brand is claiming we are doing this , we are doing that -  there’s no uniformity. So that storytelling is important but uniformity in storytelling is not there and I don’t know how it will come again ? or will it come or not?

Ebru:
I think you need to look at the system again and you need to look at the value definition and this cannot happen by individual companies. We need to look at value chain, the brands have to work together with the manufacturers to authentically create all these stories . We have the technology, we have invested in the technology. Now it’s time to really make sure that information gets through to the consumers as well because they want to embrace authentic consumption. It’s not just authentic manufacturing but we need consumers to embrace authentic consumption . The whole supply chain needs to transform into a value chain and there will be companies who will lose because we know that sustainability has been also a marketing campaign some of these companies. This definitely has to change.

Sandeep:
But I think this will be possible basically when the common grading standards are there eg in  electronic products, the government has certain standards. They set up the standards in rating and five-star ratings or whatever kind of ratings . They do the things you know everybody will fall in line and create the products according to those standards. That is something what I feel is missing in our industry and there has to be some kind of global standards which have to come and which will enable this story to become genuine.

Ebru:
Yes it’s not very easy because it’s such a huge industry and very segmented and geographically dispersed. I think again it’s very important to break it down and make it understandable to consumers so that consumers can actually make the right choice. We have a platform totally dedicated to communicate with the consumers, to let them know what’s happening in the industry. It’s called Future Possibilities. It’s got its own web site and we were conducting seminar series at the Denimcity Amsterdam and now we will be doing it online. In the coming few weeks, we will launch our Future Possibilities seminar series online to connect with the community but more to inform the consumers. I think the idea of global standards is great but it’s very difficult for that global standards to be standardize and before we go there, we need to kind of build the link with the consumer and the right brands so that we can inform them of the choice they have.

Sandeep:
That’s what so it would be like educative tutorials for them and they can understand what’s happening behind the scenes.

Ebru:
Yes

Sandeep:
Okay so coming to my next question is again from your one of the answers that will be the future business will be data driven. So when we are talking about data driven are we really giving the higher importance to online sales because online sales it’s easier to collect data.

Ebru:
Yes there are some companies from brands who have been already working on this idea extensively. The whole idea of influencer drop models where drop collections come through the influencers and then the brands test-drive the market and then again go back to manufacturing with that information. We have now embarked a no touch economy . Data it’s going to be very important. There’s also the problem with the returns in e-commerce. How to cut down returns coming from fits is a challenge. How to really make the perfect fit ? AI driven models will help so that we can introduce perfect products that the consumers will be likely to keep.

Sandeep:
Now coming to a painful question in this  crisis  and that is the cancellations by big retailers around the world. So I’m just generally comparing different regions . Do you see cancellations differing from region to region  . Are brands giving more importance to certain regions ?

Ebru:
I would not be able to make a hundred percent correct comment here. What I see is that some companies are fulfilling their responsibilities. Some you know are still in discussion because they are also suffering as well. My point of view here is that I’m not reacting to fast fashion. As some of know industry friends are reacting. We need fast-fashion but we need fast fashion to transform and we need fast fashion to survive and become sustainable and responsible. The current situation that doesn’t allow us to say end of fast fashion. We need to come together to look at this model and see how we can really transform it. Fast fashion actually did not start to consume the industry, it started with the idea to democratize fashion and it needs to go back to that. That’s why I’m saying over and over, maybe I’m hooked on that we need to look at the system rather than like singling out issues and again here looking at the system, we have to collaboratively make the system work. This is why the brands and the manufacturers, the whole supply chain need to sit together and try to really cater to the future. It’s nothing we’ve seen before and I’m trying to also understand what is happening when brands are opening up both on the luxury level on the mid-market, on the high street level. If brands have stocks or not, if those stocks could be repurposed; we need to look at all of these and it needs sitting together and looking at the situation together.

Sandeep:
In terms of denim fabrics, what are the major changes you see that coming to denim fabrics as product ? Do we need to reinvent ourselves and change our segments or repurpose ourselves ? What we should do?

Ebru:
Again it’s a broad question and there’s a broad answer as well. A lot of development has already been happening in the denim industry through technology, technological advancements. I was one of the first ones to introduce the idea of functional technological denim fabrics into the industry and we’re talking like 10-15 years ago. In the meantime, not so much happened in that category because there’s a certain limitation as to how the denim fabrics are manufactured. With design for purpose we have seen many new fibers and raw material integration into the industry such as Dyneema for durability, four way stretch for higher performance some outdoor brands and sportswear brands embraced use of denim fabric . Again limited use but good ideas like blood circulation, phase changing materials, Coolmax ; a lot of ideas. I think we need to look at the functions like pollution reactive. That’s an area which is growing and I think the fashion could play a big role there . Anti-pollution gas sensors is a fast growing industry and we will have those gas sensors probably everywhere, on our windows, on our phones and on our clothing. Denim could actually play an active role. Again; thinking out of the box how we can really embrace more and integrate more of the climate crisis, pollution crisis features to make our jeans and denim ca be a solution to all these problems and we need to work with cross industry innovation. It cannot happen just with our industry`s way of thinking. We need to kind of come together with I would say crazy minds and innovation labs and try to take those ideas to mass production. We’ve seen great startups coming through accelerators and we need to kind of sit together and collaborate with those startup ideas and see how we can bring them to mass production . Speaking of denim, we have to bring back its value, its authenticity but again as a system not as a product but as a system. And we have to look at the digital product as well, and how we can devise the digital manufacturing.

Sandeep:
How can we contribute to health ? How can denim be a part of the health story ?

Ebru:
Again this anti-pollution area is one thing that we need to look at and we can build awareness through our products as well. I mean jeans and denim they are ubiquitous, so all ages all of the people everyone wears them. That’s where the storytelling also comes in place, so that we can use denim as a change element for the future.

Sandeep:
Because I was looking at some reports also China the factories, apparel factories they are out there many of these factories working on the one factor of PPE equipment, gowns and suits and all those things. So I don’t know if we can sometime in the near future we can reinvent ourselves as a health product and you know this denim can be a part of the story that way. It can be used as a protective equipment by the health industry by the professionals, by their doctors and other people for the health workers. That would be a big thing.

Ebru:
Antibacterial has been there through fibers and coatings for a long time. Antiviral is one area that denim hasn’t touched yet. There is one company right now claiming to have an antiviral component. Innovation is what we need to constantly look at and it will become even more important. How do we really add value to the products, to our denim and jeans?.

Sandeep:
In terms of digitalization, you already spoke so you think going let’s say next few months we are out of this crisis, do you think we’ll still retain a number of these facilities using to digitalize our lives in terms of professional lives because many people are seeing benefits in that and it looks like many of these things might become part of life and we may not really want to leave them even if they are out of the crisis ?

Ebru:
Yes I think some of the behavioral change will remain like traveling less. We’ve seen that some online and digital systems work, so we don’t really need to go all the way to another country to have a meeting. We at Soorty are working on a digitized online version of our collection and we will make one-to-one appointments with our customers, so that we can take them through this system. It’s happening with what we have available now; but we can definitely enhance once everything goes back being operational.  We can enhance that system further and that will save time and save cost for a lot of people, for a lot of companies and it will make things more accessible. The companies who are really investing in digital solutions will have better communication with their customers for sure. The other thing is now that everyone is at home in lockdown people are investing in well-being and that’s an area that we need to look at and how we can use denim as an element of well-being and also comfort. Can denim be as comfortable to become our daily home wear ?

Sandeep:
What are the biggest positive you see from personally at personal level as well as professional way from the situation from this crisis ?

Ebru:
Like I said probably we will stop to produce for landfills. Sustainability might have a chance, it might have a chance to work.

Sandeep:
You think that it’d be really strong after these crisis?

Ebru:
In terms of global spending limitations , yes. In two years will people go back to their normal level of earnings? I don’t know what will happen but sustainability might have a chance on a more global scale. I think it’s that’s the positive side. We have started thinking and linking individual cases like climate change as being embedded into business. It’s not a concept out there happening on its own; so this is the time to really assess what’s happening globally and I am thinking that this could be a very big warning call for us. Actually the pandemic could be a warning call for something worse; that could happen in the future through climate change, through all this disruption. Currently we’re not seeing climate crisis as a life-and-death issue but when we come to the understand that it’s a life-and-death issue, then we start thinking differently. I think this pandemic and the lockdowns gave us that signal and on a personal level I’m trying to make more use of my day. I am feeling very appreciative of the help I used to have and the help I have now so I feel huge appreciation for people who are working to make our life in lockdown feel more safe. I’m very busy actually. I mean like I have a work and life balance still but I’m very busy because I have to cook I have to clean and work. I also take care of myself and my son but we have a regular daily practice yoga practice. It’s different kind of bonds that you make; initially with yourself because it’s more quiet right now. I’ve been with the industry for over three decades so over thirty years I am always on the road so probably in the last 20 years this is the only four weeks that I haven’t travelled and it’s a new phase and I am learning a lot.

Sandeep:
Do  you have a garment which you could wear you know right in the morning or do yoga meditation then when you’re cooking still it’s there and then you are taking care of your kids or people at home and still it’s there and when you are working and interacting with your company colleagues and all still you are getting it. You think you do wish that kind of garment actually ?

Ebru:
Yes we  already do. We have amazing products and concepts that we are introducing with the coming collection but it’s not just SOORTY it’s the whole industry that we have been constantly innovating. Maybe innovating without really informing the customers in depth. So it’s time to go deeper now as we have the time to sit across somebody and talk about one single product and try to relate to the beauty of it. The technology, the concept behind it because so much work goes in coming up with one concept and most of the time you don’t really have the time to talk about that to your customers. So I think now we have it if you have that chance and that’s what we try to integrate into our digital collection as well.

Sandeep:
That’s great, so anything else you would like to say do the denim community, your friends and people are also there online right now, everybody else from your side?

Ebru:
We all have to look into the future with a big heart and a big mind and this is very important to stay still positive. These are very tough times globally and we’re all in this together and we will come out of this together. It’s very important to really communicate even on an individual base to ask how we are feeling how the other person is feeling. Reach out to each other because we relate to one another. I mean people from the industry relate to one another in a more profound way. Our friendship for instance with you is over many years and we remained in contact. This is an industry built on trust and collaborative approaches. Let’s stay positive let’s stay healthy be safe.

Sandeep:
Any two or three key words which you feel are the strongest key words for you during this time , any you know whether this personal professional or whatever ?

Ebru:
Authenticity, Responsibility and Compassion.

Sandeep:
All right, that’s great. Thank you so much and  that was a wonderful talk because we in the last few days we have been always meeting at the shows and all and you know now it’s time to really good Easter and we are talking to each other and facing each other digitally.

Ebru:
Thank you so much and you are really bringing a lot of people together and building a great archive. So thank you for all the work that you are doing.

Sandeep:
I think you said that’s so nice of you and I also want to thank my team my entire team is working very hard you know I think probably we are working more than normal times and everybody is involved and we you know the video is a shared and converted into articles and everything is you know it’s a lot of what we are doing so I want to thank my team profusely. They really working very hard and my daughters and my you know wife also very much involved in this helping me a lot so I want to thank everybody.

Ebru:
My heartfelt gratitude to them as well.

Sandeep:
Thank you.

Ebru:
Thankyou. Stay Safe.

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